The photo in question is a black and white portrait of Carangi, taken in 1978. Jacki is the sweet little girl in these photos. Gias famous dead shot that originally appeared as part of a fashion editorial spread in the November 1978 issue of American Vogue. No makeup, just a natural beauty. Kathleen Helen Adams Carangi Sperr (1935-2016) - Find a Grave She took a teddy bear on the flight, flirting with the female flight attendants. MODEL POSING.00:23:06 CU KINE WORKS ON MODEL'S HAIR AS MAKE-UP ARTISTWORKS ON HER EYES AT SAME TIME. She sat down on my couch with me, put her head on my shoulder and cried. Gia was always proud. Grateful to finally, after 40 plus years to see the entire contact sheet.. a shoot that changed my life orchestrated by Chris and Gia. Back in 2020, makeup artist Sandy Linter recalled to The Hollywood Reporter that she and Carangi had a romance in the late 1970s that "was never a torrid sexual affair but we did love each other. Gia Carangi (color-corrected photos) mlsterlous 15K views 2 years ago DP/30 - Black Swan, actor Natalie Portman DP/30: The Oral History Of Hollywood 12 years ago Dr. G: Medical Examiner S1 E1 . She was diagnosed with AIDS in December 1985, and died of related complications the following November. Please contact Find a Grave at [emailprotected] if you need help resetting your password. [23] By the end of 1982, she had only a few clients that were willing to hire her. Shed get all excited about things like Dairy Queen. Mila Kunis also appeared in Gia as a younger version of Carangi, in one of her first-ever film roles, while additional cast members included Faye Dunaway, Mercedes Ruehl, Elizabeth Mitchell and Scott Cohen. Dan marries second wife Rosyln Goldstein. Michelle was the teenage granddaughter who lived with Kathleen and Henry when Gia died. However, her legacy lives on, and she remains one of the most iconic models of all time. She started with marijuana and cocaine. She started out using marijuana and then progressed to using harder drugs. There was an error deleting this problem. Carangi was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1954. Starting with Gia's Grandfather John Carangi from Italy. Additionally, Gias may have had a rare genetic disorder that caused his skin to blister and peel. Photographer Andrea Blanch shot the image. Explore Gia Carangi Wiki Age, Height, Biography as Wikipedia, Husband, Family relation. When Gia Carangi's life is remembered at all, it is remembered as a tragedy. Try again later. LAST PHOTOS OF CELEBRITIES BEFORE DEATH - YouTube After her release, Carangi briefly signed with a new agency, Legends, and worked sporadically, mainly in Europe. With Cooper's help and her own natural instincts, Gia quickly shoots to the top of the modeling world. Sondra Scerca, who brought Carangi to Wilhelmina, is currently writing a memoir titled GIA, WILLY and ME, which will be released in 2022. Tribute To Gia - Stillettos and Sneakers LiveJournal Believed to have contracted it from a contaminated needle, she became one of the first famous women to die of the disease. The Philadelphia beauty was one of the very first supermodels, but she is mainly known for her troubled life and untimely tragic death at the. Birthday: January 29, 1960: Birthplace: Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, United States: Death: November 18, 1986 . Sometime around 1983 or 84, my doorbell rang. Please ensure you have given Find a Grave permission to access your location in your browser settings. Flowers added to the memorial appear on the bottom of the memorial or here on the Flowers tab. Your email address will not be published. She moved to Atlantic City, New Jersey, where she continued to use drugs. Why did Gia Carangi skin fell off? - WittyQuestion.com ROCHELLE SILVER WAS A PHILADELPHIA area student with dirty-blond hair, a smart mouth and a lot of questions about her sexuality. The nude shot has since become legendary and was later reproduced in the 1998 HBO film Gia starring Angelina Jolie. We stopped once to ask for directions from a guy in his backyard. Last Day Gia Carangi Last Photo - November 2022 - Tomaswhitehouse.com The fashion spread was titled: The Start of Something Pretty. The 1998 HBO television film featured a then-22-year-old Jolie as the real-life Carangi, who was considered by many the world's first supermodel. ??? We went to St. Barts together, which was not yet the place to be, like it is today. She burst onto the scene in the late 1970s, traveled the world, posed for famous photographers, landed on the covers of Vogue and Cosmopolitan, and fronted campaigns for Dior, Versace and Yves Saint Laurent. [3] One of Carangi's friends later spoke of her "tomboy persona", describing her relaxed openness about her sexuality as reminiscent of the character Cay in the 1985 film Desert Hearts. cemeteries found within miles of your location will be saved to your photo volunteer list. Gia Carangi Abc Tv'S, Vanished: Shooting Star 1/6 [3], In her adolescent years, Carangi found the attention she sought from other teenage girls, befriending them by sending flowers. "Gia went into the bathroom and she was in the stall and I was going to throw some water on her from the next stall," Rochelle remembers. Gia Marie Carangi moved to New York City at the age of 17 and instantly took the fashion industry by storm. Despite airbrushing, some of the photos, as published in the November 1980 issue, reportedly still showed visible needle marks. John had four children (all sons) with Lucy (Lucia) Menichella of Philadelphia. I said, Whats this? I knew it and she knew it. We spent a lot of time together, going to clubs, restaurants, just out all the time. I love capturing moments in time and preserving them for others to see. Gia Carangi was addicted to heroin. Ia tampil di majalah British Vogue pada 1979, Vogue . Of her quick rise to prominence, described by Vogue as "meteoric",[6] Carangi later said, "I started working with very good people, I mean all the time, very fast. Maria Grazia Chiuri took inspiration from Catherine Dior, the very first Miss Dior and sister of the founder Christian Dior, for her Fall/Winter 2023 collection. Try again later. Gia Carangi - Wikipedia Try again later. Towards the end, I connected with her on the phone a few times because we had drifted apart. Fashion Model. Nudity was allowed in European magazines but not in America, really. February 27, 2023 . When Gia came in to discuss switching agencies, Elite president Monique Pillard asked to see her forearms. She was arrested for drug possession and was in and out of rehab. Everyone loved her look so much that they gladly saw me. [25], Carangi spent most of her modeling earnings on drugs, and spent the final three years of her life with various lovers, friends, and family members in Philadelphia and Atlantic City. / kathleen carangi death. #sandylintermakeup my interview with @theselectsgallery recently. Gias last official appearance on the cover of Cosmopolitan was the April 1982 issue. This browser does not support getting your location. She ran inside and got one ear pierced and I was just along for the ride. Ive actually heard over the years that she could do her own makeup and the truth is, no. "People are always after me in New York," Gia would often say. 1960 - 1986. Heroin is a highly addictive drug that can be very dangerous. I had to let her know that I had terms and I was worried that AIDS was going to kill her. Thats when I knew. He took the shot and its fabulous. There are no volunteers for this cemetery. I stood behind Chris as I watched them both work. Scavullo considered Gia a muse and featured her on five different Cosmo covers between 1979 and 1982. After a chase with police, she was taken into custody where it was later determined she was under the influence of alcohol and cocaine. Shortly after graduating from high school in 1977, she moved to New York City to pursue a modeling career, where her beauty, street-smart attitude, and coolness with a touch of vulnerability, quickly made her a top model, and she was selected for photo covers on numerous top magazines, including "Vogue" and "Cosmopolitan." Unfortunately, until the cause of Gias skin falling off is determined, it is impossible to know what could have been done to prevent it. gia carangi last photo shoot. "I think there was a yacht involved. There are many contenders, but no clear evidence to determine who took the most famous photo of her. Search . Your email address will not be published. Director J.J. Martin Stars Gia Carangi (archive footage) Janice Dickinson Sandy Linter See production, box office & company info Add to Watchlist 3 User reviews 1 Critic review Photos Add photo John was a jeweler. It was a nice gesture but looked horrible. Teen worshiping David Bowie, she went to his concerts, smoking marijuana, and embracing her bisexuality. Gia - Wikipedia He hired her for the fashion house's next campaign, but during the photo shoot, in late 1982, Carangi became uncomfortable and left before any useable shots of her were taken. Mother of one of the world's first "supermodels," Gia Carangi and two sons, Joseph and Michael Carangi. Director Michael Cristofer Writers Jay McInerney Michael Cristofer Stars Angelina Jolie Faye Dunaway Elizabeth Mitchell See production, box office & company info Watch on HBO Max And for every dollar you earn, someone has to pay. She left New York for the final time in early 1983. or don't show this againI am good at figuring things out. I mean what do you say? Arguably the world's first supermodel, Gia Carangi paved the way for Campbell, Turlington, and Crawford - with the latter billed 'Baby Gia' when she made her runway debut. MAKE UP MAN POWDERS MODEL'S NOSEBETWEEN SHOTS. Gia Marie Carangi (Filadlfia, 29 de janeiro de 1960 Filadlfia, 18 de novembro de 1986) foi uma supermodelo norte-americana, atuante entre fins dos anos 1970 e incio dos anos 1980. Carangi was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, in 1954. Gia, a biographical television film starring Angelina Jolie, debuted on HBO in 1998. Jen Juneau is a digital news writer for PEOPLE since 2016. This photo is Lucy with Gia, and the other little girl is a cousin. The 26-year-old model was already battling a heroin addiction, and her days were numbered. gia carangi Quotes - Goodreads Lewis Crematory and Funeral Home shares death announcements Once I read an article in the New York Times and I tried to tell her to be careful because it said that IV drug users, including women, were getting sick. Gia Carangi: The Rise and Fall of The World's First Supermodel She was a talented and successful model, but her addiction to heroin ultimately led to her downfall. Audrey Munson,[34][35] Lisa Fonssagrives,[36][37] Dorian Leigh,[38] Twiggy, Jean Shrimpton,[39] and Janice Dickinson. Gia Carangi was an American model, considered by many to be the first supermodel. ~source: Ancestry.com, Findagrave.com, Facebook, google.com and Thing of Beauty. Later I would come home with her on holidays, and her moms attitude toward me depended on how well Gias modeling was going. Learn more about merges. Linter told THR that the last time she saw Carangi was in 1983 or 1984, when the model rang her doorbell, then "sat down on my couch with me, put her head on my shoulder and cried. Carangi and her dark features disrupted an industry that was dominated by tall, blonde models. After the shoot, as I was packing my makeup, he said to me: I would like to do some personal photos of you and Gia, and he walked out of the room. Chris died in a car crash in 1981. Carangi's final photo shoot was for German mail-order clothing company Otto GmbH in Tunisia;[24] she was sent home during the shoot for using heroin. I didnt pry. John (Giovanni) Carangi was born on December 8, 1882, in Castelpizzuto, Isernia, Molise, Italy. The chain-link fence photos by Chris von Wangenheim. [16][17], In November 1980, Carangi left Wilhelmina Models and signed with Ford Models, but she was dropped within weeks. Joe Carangi Jrs 1st child is Michelle Carangi. 1968 ~ Gia gets her first hair cut at eight years old. Tweet. Gia. Resend Activation Email, Please check the I'm not a robot checkbox, If you want to be a Photo Volunteer you must enter a ZIP Code or select your location on the map. Here you can find biography, video, audio records and leave a condolence message or make personalized memorial gift for Gia Marie Carangi, like sympathy flowers Log in Register. The day after the shoot, late in the afternoon, my phone rang and it was Gia. Gia M. CarangiBeloved Daughter1960 - 1986, Your Scrapbook is currently empty. I think back to how she died of AIDS and how, at that time, there was such a stigma to it. What a stupid thing to tell her. A documentary titled The Self-Destruction of Gia, released in 2003, showcased footage of Carangi, contemporary interviews with Carangi's family and former colleagues, including Sandy Linter, and footage of actress-screenwriter Zo Lund, herself a heroin addict, who had been commissioned to write a screenplay based upon Carangi's life at the time of her own death of drug-related causes in 1999. Despite her problems, Carangi was still able to achieve great success as a model. Her story, when told today, is often shared as a cautionary tale of the dangers of drugs, but there is so much more to Carangi than the tabloid headlines. From that time until the end, Gia didnt leave me alone. She was like an Italian guy from the old school. Movie Info Gia Carangi (Angelina Jolie) travels to New York City with dreams of becoming a fashion model. [26] After treatment, she got a job in a clothing store, which she eventually quit. Sorry! Gia died at age 26 of AIDS, likely due to her addiction to heroin, on Nov. 18, 1986. Gia Marie Carangi Journal Of Life Memorial Website, Biography, Photos [18] Carangi underwent a 21-day detox program,[19] but her sobriety was short-lived. Memulai kariernya pada tahun 1978, ia dengan cepat menjadi pilihan para klien dan fotografer. She died a few months later, in November 1986. Gia died on November 18, 1986, in her hometown at the age of 26, and was buried in Feasterville, Pennsylvania. Scavullo maintains that Gia had put on weight and he had her sit on her hands to make her look thinner however it is widely believed that Gias arms were placed behind her to hide her track marks. In 1976, she was featured on the cover of Vogue magazine, and her career was on the rise. Gia Carangi was a pioneer in the modeling world. She sat down in the chair and immediately put her feet up on the makeup table. Shot by photographer Francesco Scavullo, the memorable cover featured a sultry Gia wearing a yellow gravity-defying swimsuit. You could just see that shes a star. Gia Marie Carangi died at the age of 26 from AIDS. One morning after going out to a club, I heard Gia on the phone in the kitchen. I didnt even know she was sick. Still, Elite took Gia on because she was Gia and because they thought they could help her straighten out her career and her life. Lucy passed March 27, 1965 at the age of 70. According to Dazed, Carangi attempted several times to get clean, including going to rehab, but it never stuck. Share this memorial using social media sites or email. She quickly became one of the most sought-after models in the world. Failed to report flower. It mustve been like that all her life. I just told him I would keep my boots on because I was so short and that would make me feel better. During her short career, Carangi was photographed by many well-known photographers, including Richard Avedon, Francesco Scavullo, and David Bailey. Allemand was then taken to University Hospital in New Orleans and put on life support. love me, love me, love me, love me. and early 1980s. The twins and their two older brothers Andrew and Anthony were second-generation Italian Catholics, whose father John owned jewelry stores under the de-ethnicized name Crane. Gia Carangi, atau lebih terkenal dengan nama Gia saja, 29 Januari 1960 - 18 November 1986 adalah seorang supermodel di dunia fashion yang mengalami masa keemasannya pada era 1970 hingga 1980an. Gia Carangi was born in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, on October 29, 1960. Lewis Funeral Home and Crematory is serving the family. It was directed by Michael Cristofer and written by Cristofer and Jay McInerney. Her body was buried in Trenton, New Jersey. CU ARTIST WORKS ON MODEL'S LIPS WITH BRUSH.00:21:11 CU HAIR STYLIST HARRY KINE AND STYLIST SHAWN BYRNECAREFULLY CREATE CASUAL, UNTAMED LOOK ON MODEL.00:21:42 SCAVULLO PEERS INTO CAMERA AS HE GESTURESINSTRUCTIONS, AS KINE FIXES MODELS' HAIR BEFORESCAVULLO SHOOTS. [3] During this time, she also appeared in the Blondie music video for "Atomic". You are nearing the transfer limit for memorials managed by Find a Grave. They had one child, son John. Sadly most all are dead now, and Gia was born at the wrong time, being a Lesbian was something that really tormented her and her family. I did Gia and Lisa Vales makeup. Officially arriving in America, December 6, 1900. I had just come back from a summer at Fire Island Pines, where we were all mostly nude or topless. I never knew what love was or good sex was. However, her life was cut short by a heroin addiction, and she died at the age of 26. "[3], After being featured in Philadelphia newspaper ads and being discovered by Sondra Scerca in Maurice Tannenbaum's hair salon,[5] Carangi moved to New York City at the age of 17, where she signed with Wilhelmina Models. In the late 1970s, Carangi was discovered on the dance floor by a local photographer. At the age of 17, Gia Carangi was a pretty high-school student - height 5ft 8in, stats 34-24-35, dress size 8-10 - working behind the counter at her father's little restaurant in Philadelphia . Thanks for using Find a Grave, if you have any feedback we would love to hear from you. However, her addiction was beginning to take its toll. Found more than one record for entered Email, You need to confirm this account before you can sign in. Shes going to be trouble. 1971, February ~ Kathleen moves out, leaving Joe and the children. Carangi este considerat de muli ca fiind primul supermodel, dei acest titlu a mai fost atribuit i altora, precum Twiggy, Janice Dickinson, Dorian Leigh i Jean Shrimpton.Modelul Cindy Crawford a fost mai trziu denumit "Baby Gia", datorit asemnrii cu . Learn about how to make the most of a memorial. Despite her short life, Carangi left a lasting legacy in the fashion world. When Gia Marie Carangi was born on January 29, 1960, in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, her father, Joseph, was 35, and her mother, Kathleen, was 24. In late 1978, she was diagnosed with AIDS, and she died just a few months later. Thats what I started doing and Gia followed my lead. Her striking good looks and charismatic personality made her a favorite among photographers and fashion designers. Are you sure that you want to remove this flower? ALL DONE BYSCAVULLO, ONE OF WORLD'S FORMOST PHOTOGRAPHERS.00:20:31 CU FRANCESCO SORTS OUT SOME OF HIS NEGATIVES INHIS NEW YORK CITY STUDIO. It was the 80s and people were always offering me something to snort and it was like, OK, fine. They were party drugs back then. I was surprised that she was up because she didnt like to get up in the morning. All About Sarah Ferguson, Elvis Presley's Death: The Details Behind the King of Rock & Roll's Passing. Failed to remove flower. She immediately sprung into action, renting a Jeep and driving us over the hilly terrain of the small island. Gia & @sandylinter photographed by Michael Tighe, 1979. So, who photographed Gia Carangi? Ill say this on camera, this is the only time I ever say this on camera. This account already exists, but the email address still needs to be confirmed. She was very quiet. Carangi was born Gia Marie Carangi in Philadelphia on Jan. 29, 1960, into a working-class family that included two older brothers. "I want to live so bad, but I'm so terribly sad." - Gia Carangi. I knew the REAL Gia Carangi--This Movie is Trash! She thought she could go home to her mothers house on weekends to clean up and then come back to the city but that never worked. It was the end of our romance. I knew it and she knew it. Joe Carangi was born a fraternal twin with his brother Daniel, May 18, 1924. Description: Gia Marie Carangi ( January 29, 1960 - November 18, 1986 ) was an American fashion model during the late 1970s and early 1980s. However, weeks . She was my lover. It's been 25 years since Angelina Jolie starred as Gia Carangi in Gia. When she became very sick, she turned to her mother, who had her immediately hospitalized. Use the links under See more to quickly search for other people with the same last name in the same cemetery, city, county, etc. Thinking about where she would be in her life today with the LGBTQ community, her pride would have evolved. She was like. I had done a shoot for Vogue magazine one day, and I dont think I have the photos here of the exact shoot; it was with the model Lisa Vale and Gia. Photos of her in the November 1980 issue of "Vogue" clearly show track marks on her arms from her drug abuse. The drugs took everything.". At age seventeen, Gia Carangi was working the counter at her father's Philadelphia luncheonette, Hoagie City. Gia Carangi's grave The funeral took place three days later. What did I get myself into? [29] In the fall of 1986, Carangi was hospitalized again, after being found on the street badly beaten and raped. introducing citations to additional sources, "Gia: The tragic tale of the world's first supermodel", "Gia the tragedy of a lesbian supermodel", "Gia Carangi in Blondie's "Atomic" Video | Gia", "The Life and Death of Gia Carangi self-referential? But the drugs were not Gias greatest concern, nor was her career. She died in 1986 at age 26 of AIDS-related complications, at just 26 years old. Who photographed Gia Carangi? I did right away. [3] Gia was described as "needy and manipulative" by relatives who recalled her as spoiled and shy as a child and a "mommy's girl" who did not receive the motherly attention that she desired. All About Robert Downey Jr.'s Late Dad, Robert Downey Sr. Naomi Campbell Remembers Godson Harry Brant 2 Years After His Death: 'I Think of You Today', Everything to Know About Barry Keoghan, the Oscar Nominated Actor in 'Banshees of Inisherin', Who Is Prince Andrew's Ex-Wife? Gia Carangi - Listal Sandra Kay Parker. TIMELINE : Gia Carangi Lived Here While it is unclear exactly which modeling photo shoot was officially Gia's final, these are confirmed photos from one of Gia's last photo shoots. "When Gias mom would come up to New York, which she did frequently, I would have something else to do that day. Her stepfather hired prominent criminal defense lawyer John Duffy. Gia Carangi travels to New York City with dreams of becoming a fashion model. Gia Carangi: The Doomed Career Of America's First Supermodel Daniels first child, John S., was born Oct 13, 1948, passed away 1988 age 40. I remember a lot about that day. Im sure he never forgot her. While there are many contenders, the answer is not entirely clear. Modeling offers soon ceased and her fashion industry friends, including Sandy Linter, refused to speak to her, fearing their association with her would harm their careers. It was never a torrid sexual affair but we did love each other. She was discovered by a fashion photographer when she was just 16 years old. He owned jewelry stores on Frankford & Oxford Avenues, under the de-ethnicized name of Crane. Thats what happens when you do drugs, bad things. [27] She later found employment as a checkout clerk and then worked in the cafeteria of a nursing home. Are you sure that you want to report this flower to administrators as offensive or abusive? One image features Gia looking glamorous while the other is a more natural shot. I mean, she was adorable. Gia Marie Carangi, better known as "Gia Carangi", is the name of world's first supermodel. RELATED: Gia Carangi was a world-famous model in the 1970s. [3] Those who knew Gia blamed her "fractured childhood" for the instability and drug dependence that plagued her adult life. When she was doing good, they were thrilled she was there, happy to see us. Gia - Rotten Tomatoes After she became addicted to heroin, Gia's fashionable career rapidly declined. Gia streaming: where to watch movie online? - JustWatch John (Giovanni) Carangi was buried in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania with his mother Antonia DiDonato. Gia Carangi Quotes Biography & Metadata. gia carangi death At first they carried on the relationship long distance, although Gia wanted Rochelle to move to New York with her. Please try again later. Chris photographed them against a wire fence, similar to one you would see in a playground. "And I looked over the top and she had the syringe in her hand and she had drawn it up. In October 1978 Gia had her first major fashion shoot with top photographer Chris von Wangenheim. Please check your email and click on the link to activate your account. However, Carangis life was also plagued by addiction and personal turmoil. Baby girl Gia joined her brothers Joe Jr and Michael in the Carangi household at 4027 Fitler Street, Philly. Gia Carangi Height, Weight, Size, Body Measurements, Biography, Wiki, Age More than 35 years after Carangi's death, Gia is still beloved by fans, holding a Rotten Tomatoes score of 93%, with an Audience Score of 82%. Hbo Presents Wild, Sad Story of Supermodel Gia Carangi Gia Carangi (January 29, 1960 - November 18, 1986) Carangi immediately became infatuated with Linter and pursued her, though the relationship never became stable. At night she did not want to be alone and she was just 19 years old alone in New York. One thing I quickly discovered about Gia is that she did not want to be alone. The 29-year-old dance instructor, who . Born to a middle class family in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, where her father owned a string of hoagie shops, she was especially close to her mother,. Because she looked so good, I had been tricked into thinking that she was on the road to recovery," Linter said. She was of Italian and Irish descent. She was considered one of the most beautiful women in the world. Cause of death: unknown/unpublicized. Gias second Cosmopolitan cover was the July 1979 issue. [42][43], Carangi's life has been the subject of several works. She is considered one of the most influential fashion models of all time, and her style has been emulated by countless models since her death. Gia had four siblings. Full-length portrait of American fashion model Gia Carangi (1960 - 1986) as she sits in front of a lit fireplace, dressed in a semi-transparent short with metallic coloured dots, a thin wrap-around belt, and a short skirt, late 1970s to mid 1980s. Gia was 5. I was just as shocked as anybody that she became an addict. We have set your language to Gias first appearance on the cover of Cosmopolitan was the April 1979 cover that featured a shot of supermodel wearing a Lycra bodysuit. It was the beginning of a frenzied, frightening period in both womens lives, a self-destructive period that was still somehow suffused with love and tenderness. She redefined the standard of beauty and became one of the biggest models in fashion history. She was adored by photographers and magazines, and her career was taking off. When Cooper dies of lung cancer, however, Gia . Gia Carangi Quotes - A-Z Quotes | Quotes for All Occasions Wed come back at night and go out to have a drink somewhere and somebody would come up to Gia and say, Where the hell were you? And then I realized she hadnt ever called. By the time Carangi was 18, she was making over $100k annually, which made her the highest paid model at the time the reason why many in the fashion industry consider her the worlds first supermodel. GREAT NEWS! Sign up for THR news straight to your inbox every day, The top scoops on the goings-on around town what industry insiders are really talking about.